[2] Since the spirits of our world answer in the Grand Man to natural and bodily sense, I have been allowed to learn by plain experience how the spiritual and the natural man fight and quarrel, if the natural man is not in a state of faith and charity.

[3] The spirits of the world of Saturn were seen coming from far off, and then direct communication was established between them and such spirits of our world. On becoming aware of them our spirits became almost mad, and started to attack them, throwing out disparaging remarks about faith and also about the Lord; and amid their rudeness and insults they actually plunged in among them, and the madness from which they were suffering made them attempt to inflict injury. But the spirits of Saturn were not at all frightened, being safe and calm. However, the spirits of our world, finding themselves among them began to be distressed and to have difficulty in breathing, so that they hurled themselves away, one in one direction, another in another, and disappeared.

[4] This made the bystanders aware what the natural man is like, if he is separated from the spiritual man, when he enters a spiritual sphere; he is driven mad. For the natural man when separated from the spiritual can draw only on the world's wisdom, and gets nothing from heaven. Anyone who relies only on the world's wisdom believes nothing but what his senses tell him, and trusts what the deceptive impressions of the senses make him believe. Unless these are taken away by influence from the spiritual world, they lead to false beliefs. That is why spiritual matters are meaningless to him, to such a point that he can scarcely bear to hear the spiritual mentioned. As a result such people go mad, if they are kept in a spiritual sphere. But this does not happen while they are living in the world. Then they either think about spiritual matters in a natural way, or they close their ears to them, that is, they hear but do not listen.

[5] That experience also proved that the natural man cannot invade, that is, climb up to, the spiritual man. But when a person is in a state of faith and thus enjoys spiritual life, the spiritual man exerts an influence on the natural man, and thinks in him. Spiritual influence, that is, an influence from the spiritual world, can occur working on the natural world, but not the reverse.# # Influence is spiritual, not physical or natural, so that the spiritual world influences the natural world, but the natural does not influence the spiritual world (AC 3219, 5119, 5259, 5427-8, 5477, 6322). There is an apparent influence of a person's externals on his internals, but this is misleading (AC 3721).